Pandemic Papers: An interview with Kathy Gould (Class of 1983)

As we continue to forge forward with the Pandemic Papers series in the early days of 2021, we expand the scope of it today by including Kathy Gould (Class of 1983). Kathy was not a runner on the team back then – fun fact, the women’s team didn’t begin until two years after she graduated! – but her connections and contributions to our program are many, they are significant, they are strong, and there is no more avid follower of this blog (which we greatly appreciate!). Kathy is the matriarch (fancy word!) of a truly Marist Family. She met her husband, Chris, while both were undergrads at Marist back in the early 1980s. Her daughters Kelley and Annie are both Marist alums and proud Forever Foxes of our program. Kelley’s husband (Billy Posch) and Annie’s future husband (Ken Walshak) are both Marist alums and proud Forever Foxes of our program. She refers to them – her husband, her daughters, her daughters’ current and future husbands, as the Core Six, and I am grateful to count all six as near and dear friends. The “near” part is real! Kathy and Chris live in Stormville, just 40 minutes from the Marist campus. Kell and Bill and Annie and Kenny have both recently settled into homes in Hopewell Junction. Highly neat!

In this interview, Kathy does a great job of recounting the earlier days of Marist. Our time at Marist overlapped briefly – my freshman year was her senior year (1982-83). We didn’t know each other, but it’s a virtual certainty that we shared the same space at the same time in the Pub, Skinner’s and/or Renaissance (maybe two or more on the same night, in some cases!), not to mention Donnelly Hall, which back then was pretty much the only classroom building. And yes, we never called Champagnat “Champ” … I agree with that! I vaguely remember references to Phi Tappa Kegga. My memories of the original River Day are far from vague; they are vivid, and Kathy’s descriptions of them brought me back to the top-secret nature of that moment in time.

Fast forward to the Modern Era, how we got to know Kathy and Chris in our respective adulthood years. We have always been blessed with outstanding family support in our program. Kathy was a great unifier in that area, commandeering our tailgates – especially at cross country meets. Because both their daughters ran for us and their careers overlapped, the “Gould Era” in our program lasted for two cycles with enough memories in those glorious years to fill a lifetime – for them, for us. She misses it greatly? We miss THEM just as much! Fortunately, the legacy of the tailgates continues. Athletes boarding buses with full bellies and enough food to last a week (not to mention the old man up front mooching chocolate chip cookies from them) remains a strong tradition, and Kathy is responsible for truly marshalling that.

Again, with the “Core Six” living so close to us, it should be easy to remain connected. Ah, but what is “easy” during these times? Other than a few walks here and there, we haven’t been able to see them as much as we would like. Kathy mentions endless Zoom calls and Google meets, of their 2020 world. My gosh, that Internet connection up in Stormville must have been industrial strength! Four adults, streaming meetings all day, and wearing a groove into that treadmill when not staring at a screen? Things should start loosening up. The kids are off on their own in Hopewell Junction, rail trail close at hand as long as there’s no snow. There’s even a dog added to the mix now! (Don’t worry, there’s not an entire question and paragraph devoted to THIS Luna, unlike the Sami interview!) On a personal note, Kathy’s loyalty to the blog means a lot. There have been more than a few moments when I wonder if it should continue. Blogs are quite an antiquated mode of communication in the social media age; most current members of the team either don’t read it or aren’t even aware of it (self-promotion is not in my skillset), and I can’t blame them. My motivation to do upwards of 400 posts a year – in our heyday, that’s where we were at -- has faded. Especially in 2020, other than the Pandemic Papers interviews, my posts – and my desire to post – waned greatly, to the point where I felt “why bother?” much of the time. Folks like Kathy and Marty McGowan and Mike Murphy and others inspire me to keep going. There may be lean weeks and months, but I’ll do my best to keep it going.

Anyway! This was a long-winded introduction. Let's get right to the fun stuff. Thanks to Kathy Gould for putting so much time, effort, thought and love into this interview. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did, and the great ride we’ve had with the entire Core Six, with more fun and different memories to come.   

You and Chris went to Marist back in the Dark Ages compared to younger generations. What was the Marist of the late 1970s/early 1980s like?

Oh my, where do I even start. Dennis Murray (DJM!) began his storied career as President of Marist while we were there. He was and continues to be the man, always gracious, always kind. He and his wife Marilyn gave so much of their lives to Marist and even came back for Round 2. Well done, DJM!

There were only three dorms, Champagnat (NOT to ever be referred to as Champ!), Leo and Sheehan. The only learning areas/classrooms were in Donnelly and some rooms attached to Champagnat (not CHAMP!). You had to wait on line to get your classes using pencil and paper with preferential placement to upperclassmen (this promoted many 8:30 a.m. classes for the freshmen L). We actually used books for reference, not computers. There were no cell phones, only pay phones which usually had a line waiting to use. I remember praying that my mom would answer the collect call because my dad would deny the collect call charge. We had “Mixers” (dances) in the caf once a month, sometimes live bands would be there! We got actual mail from the post office in the bottom of Champagnat!  If you were lucky, your parents would throw a $20 bill in a card. Nobody had a car and if they did we would stuff 15 of us in it on Friday (pay day!) to get snacks and beverages for the weekend, which usually started on Thursday. 

Where did you go to high school and how did you decide on Marist back then?

When I was a senior in high school, my family moved from Brooklyn to Carmel, NY. My dad, a Retired Lieutenant Detective with the NYPD, wouldn’t let me go to the local public high school (which did very well by both of my daughters!) so I ended up going to what is now Kennedy Catholic, in Somers, NY. It was a horrible transition from the city to the country. I played a good game of basketball back then. Having five brothers, they always needed me for even teams so I was a pretty decent guard back in the day. I actually didn’t begin my college career at Marist. I received a basketball scholarship to Mercy College and because of the free tuition, my dad made me go to Mercy. I was miserable. I finally convinced my parents to let me take out the loans and go to Marist for the spring semester. My dad was of the ilk that if you wanted to go to college, you needed to figure out a way to pay for it. I arrived on Super Bowl Sunday 1980 and the first person I met was someone I had gone to St. Vincent Ferrer parochial school with in Brooklyn, Don Gately.  Leo 6^th Floor was my new home. The rest is history. I fell in love with Marist from Day 1 and never, ever felt any different. I met Chris that night too and no it wasn’t love at first sight … he had a stupid looking cowboy hat on and was listening to the Grateful Dead, enough said.

Tell us some "old stories" about your Marist days: Skinner's, the pub on campus, River Day, anything else. Remember, I'm also a vestige from that era! It can be as uncensored as you like ...

Old stories could get me into trouble. I will limit it to a few. Fun fact: I lived in the first Marist-owned house directly across Route 9 from Donnelly. Then it was 63 North Road, today it’s Steel Plant. Yes, there was a bar in the basement of Champagnat called the Rathskeller, we called it The Rat. It evolved into The Pub, very original. Nobody proofed you to go in (legal drinking age was 18 back then). The first video game I ever saw was in the Rat. PacMan! I was not from the gamers. If you were lucky enough to know the bartender like us, it made for a very inexpensive night. I remember sitting in Beck parking lot on the day of Kelley’s graduation.  We got there early and Chris and I were reminiscing about how this very parking lot was once Skinner’s Bar and before that Frank’s Bar. We had great times in those old haunts. Fun fact, I was served the last quarter draft at Frank’s before it closed.  (Yes, draft beer was 25 cents on certain nights). One of the only other establishments that stand out that we would walk to (remember nobody owned a car and there was no Uber) was The Renaissance, NOT Rennys! Why would you shorten such a sophisticated name?!

I remember when John Lennon died on December 8^th, 1980. We had a memorial sing-along vigil to him in the courtyard between the Student Center and the theatre. We packed hundreds of us into that tiny space. It was profound!

River Day was always the best. (I can see Bohan, Shea’s dad, lighting up right now!) Before legalities came into effect, a “Committee” of Seniors decided on the day, the River King, the River Queen, Zoo house and other ridiculous awards. You always kind of knew when it was going to happen but we literally got alerted by seniors sticking flyers under our dorm room doors at the crack of dawn that this particular day was in fact River Day. Nobody went to school and the party started early. We convened at the River just outside of the tunnel. My senior year, I lived off-campus in a house on Parker Avenue with seven guys. Growing up with five brothers this was always my comfort zone. Chris lived a block away on Gifford Avenue. His rental house had at least 10 satellite dishes attached to it. Very fancy place! Our fake (but very real to us) fraternity was Phi Tappa Kegga. Proudly, we won Zoo House at River Day and it was our pleasure to host the after party on that insane day. P.S. The “Keggas” did no community service but they made a distinct impact on the Marist Community.

What was your major at Marist and who were some of your favorite professors/classes from back in those days?

I was a Business Administration major with a concentration in Marketing and minor in Psychology. I remember the amazing Roscoe Balch, various Marist Brothers, Vinny Kochkar and Jake Maness. My Senior Internship was helping Jake run the Internship Program, which was under his guidance at the time. I really did enjoy the marketing classes and took anything Jake was teaching. I loved and am an advocate for the Core curriculum as well. I loved learning outside of my chosen major.

How and when did you and Chris meet and have you been together ever since?

As stated previously, I first met Chris on Super Bowl Sunday the very first day I transferred to Spring Semester 1980. We were very good friends at first. He left Marist for a bit to earn the funds to pay his tuition so upon his return on my birthday in 1981 we started dating. So, 39 years later, here we are … nobody makes me laugh like he does and we really like each other so it makes the empty nest thing a little more bearable. 

What year did you graduate from Marist and what direction did your life and career path take you after graduation?

I graduated from Marist in 1983. The job market was horrible and the interest rates were through the roof. I was lucky to get a job with an attorney in Carmel just to get by. I then had various marketing/sales jobs but was very happy to finally land in a company where I worked my way up from Advertising Sales Manager to Publisher at 28 years old. It was a very busy job where I wore many hats and had a staff of about 65 people.  After Kelley was born, I left the business. Thanks to Chris, I got to spend 10 amazing years raising Kelley and Annie. I spent a great deal of time at their school and decided to ask for a job there; 18 years later, here I am.  I am a Teaching Assistant in Special Education and I love it. I am also fortunate to have a small tutoring business. Shaping little minds makes me very happy, even the neediest. Education during this pandemic has been insane. If you know, you know.

Did you play any organized sports growing up? How and when did you get started with your running/jogging habit?

I always played and coached CYO softball and basketball. I never considered myself a “runner.” I’m more of what I call a “shlumper.” I get it done. I put in 3-5 miles, 6 days a week and I do it privately. I dislike running with anyone else but I do like Social Distance walks, especially with Luna!! I have never run a race which is hard to believe when surrounded by a family of runners. This is why people like Mary Christian (Mariah), Kathy Nesi (Nicki), Louise Valentino (Mark) and Ginny Townsend (Brian) are all heroes of mine. All of them have the guts to run races and do good things for their communities and causes. I know how hard you tried to get me to run races, Pete. I did donate but sadly, I didn’t run. I much prefer to spectate and cheer. That’s the passion part of running for me.

What pathway did Kelley and Annie take to get into running as their sport?

While both girls were active in softball, soccer and basketball, cross country was a total fluke for Kelley. Her friend Laurel asked her to join Modified Cross Country in seventh grade so she did. She did very well and the sport lit a fire inside of her. She loved all things running from seventh grade to this day. My dad nicknamed Annie “MeToo” because everything Kelley did Annie wanted to do. She was already indoctrinated into meets and practices and our Carmel Running Club family so she just wanted to try it. Her first indoor race was at Rockland Community College. She ran a 600 lol; she wore XS spanks that were hanging off of her and when she finished she threw up in a garbage can. I will always be proud of that first performance. My girls had great high school coaches who really took each one under their wing and gave them the base they needed to run at Marist. I am forever grateful to Schwark and Cargain and of course to Pete and Chuck. We have and will always consider you family. Watching the girls race during high school and college were just the absolute greatest days! However, watching them both train and run and finish within minutes of one another in the NYC Marathon was easily one of the top highlights of my life. I’m so proud of them both on and off the track. They are fantastic daughters, wonderful educators and amazing humans! 

I vividly remember when you and Kell came to visit Marist that first time. Were you secretly hoping she would choose Marist?

Of course, I was secretly giddy when we visited Marist. The day before we had a disaster of a visit to an extremely liberal college in Connecticut. Even the coach was an idiot. When discussing the pros and (many) cons of the visit and then sitting in silence reflecting, Annie piped up from the back seat of the car and said “Let’s face it, that place wasn’t for you!” She had more to say, but I will leave that there. So, the next day we went to Marist. You met with us, Pete. You told us “Marist recruits the person first before the runner” and the rest is Gould history. Kelley was smitten immediately and applied Early Admission.

How thrilled were you guys when Annie also chose Marist?

Annie had a tougher time making a decision about Marist, but the coaches and the team sold her. We visited many more colleges with Annie but ultimately the decision was hers. Of course, we were thrilled. Kelley was a senior, Annie was a freshman, one stop shopping for meets, what more could we want?!

You and Chris were (and still are!) avid supporters of our program and we'll never forget that. You basically created the Marist XC tailgate genre and we certainly appreciated that as well! What are some of your fondest memories as "Marist XC Parents" and how much do you miss it (we miss you!)? 

We miss it terribly. The tailgates were our pleasure to coordinate. Parents were always so generous, the kids loved it and it was a great way to connect with our kids before they were whisked off in the big red and white buses. The parents are some of the sweetest people I have ever met. VCP was always my favorite venue … taking victory pics on the tortoise and the hare statue and knowing the athletes were sent home with plenty of food always warmed my heart. Of course, the MAAC Championship at Disney was the best!  Both girls running in the same race was awesome! Hurricane Sandy was impending and when Father LaMorte was at the gate next to us to fly home, I saw it as a sign that we would be OK. Sadly, a whole group of athletes were “stuck” in Florida at the most magical place on earth. Felt so bad for them, NOT!!  What a great experience for them! 

We also used to love to host the XC pre-season get together for the women’s team at our house, which is only 40 minutes from campus. The team building events were a blast. I still remember telling the freshmen in my welcoming remarks to call their parents and that texting “LOL” and “TTYT” were not acceptable forms of communication. I loved seeing the freshmen feel such an immediate connection to the entire team on their first week of pre-season. This is why the blog was and is such a great way for parents to get information and celebrate the good “times”. Even though I don’t have a horse in the race anymore I live vicariously through the current athletes. 

Kelley and Bill's wedding was one to remember -- a true celebration of all that is good about Marist. Many of yours and Chris' friends from that era were there. In your opinion, what makes Marist such a special place, where such strong lifetime bonds are formed?

It’s hard to say why our group is still so connected. We all truly love each other and get a big kick out of each other. One of my longest friendships is with Corinne Schell, who may be employed at Marist longer than you Pete.  She’s doing a great job with admissions on the West Coast. My very first night at the caf, we sat next to each other.  I noticed her name on a notebook, Corinne Strange. So, I took the chance and awkwardly said “I know a Kenny Strange, he used to be a cop with my dad in Brooklyn.” Well, Kenny Strange was in fact her father and we figured out that we used to play in play pens at get togethers at each other’s houses. How crazy is that?! I am blessed to say she is truly my oldest friendship.

The tables of our Marist friends at Kel and Bill’s wedding meant the world to us. They all enjoyed the walk down memory lane so much. The wedding was in the Marist Chapel. Fun fact, Father LaMorte (who married Kel and Bill) was our priest at Marist as well. That’s how long he has been affiliated with the campus. Even back in the early 1980s we would go to the caf for dinner on Sunday and then hit 7 p.m. Mass.

The Phi Tappa Kegga alumni also have a texting thread aptly named “Mensa Meeting.” Not a day goes by that this group doesn’t text about politics, sports, current events -- nothing is off the table and it warms my heart when Chris bursts into hysterical laughter while looking at his phone. Sometimes he will share, sometimes he won’t. I’m OK with being on a need to know basis.

How has the pandemic impacted you and your family's life? Where do you see things going in the short- and long-term?

The pandemic has been an extension of an already stressful year. I was diagnosed with breast cancer in June 2019 and after surgery and radiation I am happy to say I am doing well. So, I was glad to see 2019 go and had such a feeling of gratitude heading into 2020. I’m a very prayerful person and spend time each and every day in prayer and with devotions.You sent me a prayer after my diagnosis, Pete, and I still say it every day. Thank you for that.

When the pandemic hit, Kel and Bill were living with us while their house was being built. Prior to the pandemic we were four ships passing in the night … working, teaching, tutoring, coaching, running, repeat.  Then it was a dead stop with all of us spending an amazing amount of time together. The waiting line for the treadmill was crazy some days. Annie and Kenny brought Luna (black lab puppy) into our lives and were able to start raising her while teaching remotely. We spent crazy amounts of time with four of us Zooming/Google Meeting at the same time in various rooms of the house. I guess the one thing we are all grateful for is the amount of time we were able to spend as a family. The six of us have kept our bubbles small and spent a great deal of quality time together. I will be forever grateful for that. The quarantining has been a pain but it has been necessary. I hope to get my 87-year-old mother vaccinated so she can go back out in public again and so my brothers can come visit her again. She misses everyone so much. It’s been horrible on the elderly. 

Obviously, the vaccine gives way to hope and bit of despair. What are the side effects? Will we regret taking it? Have they trialed it on pregnant women? Will my mother get a reaction? I pray about it every day. So, while the future is hopeful, many of us have to make decisions about a vaccine during an unprecedented time.  Hopefully God is watching this situation and will make it all right. 

Anything else you’d like to add …

I hope I haven’t bored anyone to death here. It was cathartic to go back in time so thanks for asking me, Pete. Without Marist there would be no Kathy and Chris or Kelley and Billy or Annie and Kenny. I am so grateful for my core six (and Luna)! And Marist should be grateful to us for a collective 28-plus years of tuition lol!! 

Don’t ever stop the blog, Pete! It means more to many of us Forever Foxes than you will ever know!  Thank you!

Chris and I will remain forever grateful to you and Chuck for so many things … the love and support of the Marist community is truly amazing and it never goes away. If you know, you know.

P.S. I really wish I dedicated this much love and thought into my studies at Marist … my GPA would have been amazing…

P.P.S… BUY THE BOOK “SESSIONS” BY MARIST ALUM BRIAN TOWNSEND!  IT’S AN AMAZING, QUICK READ THAT WILL CAPTURE YOU!!! AND THEN GO AND WRITE A WONDERFUL REVIEW ON ALL THE SITES THAT LET THIS AMAZING AUTHOR CONTINUE WITH HIS OUTSTANDING WRITING!!  NEXT UP, I NOMINATE NICKI NESI TO START PUBLISHING!!  IT’S TIME GIRL, LET’S GO!!

Monthly (and yearly) mileage, a lecture

With the recently completed calendar year, for the first time in more than a decade I have taken stock of my “training” – I use “training” in quotes, because the majority of that training consisted of walking. And I’m not a particularly fast walker – on average, about 3.5 miles per hour. That’s not a leisurely stroll, but it’s also not a purposeful power walk. It’s basically … what I do. During the pandemic, I started keeping track of my walking mileage, thanks to a rather outdated but still functioning Garmin watch. I had a lot more time on my hands than normal. I walked a LOT. And yes, if you follow me on Strava, you know that I still do a little bit of running as well – usually about three times per week. Add it all up (Garmin’s pretty good that way) and I logged more than 2,000 miles. On Garmin-tracked walks and runs, the total was 2,087. Add in another 100 or so miles on the treadmill (where I don’t use the Garmin watch) and on the Square Track in McCann (before the pandemic, I was regularly doing two-hour walks in the predawn darkness in there), also where my watch is pretty much useless, and the total is probably around 2,200 miles. This is merely informational. I walked. A lot. And ran about the same as most years, maybe a little more if you consider longish weekend runs that were usually not part of my routine until recently.

So, it got me to thinking about my old-runner self, when I obsessively logged my miles and even more obsessively had running streaks – the longest of which stretched a mind-numbing 13.25 years. Back in the day, especially the early years of my running streaks, I tried to average between 150-200 miles a month, with a yearly goal of at least 2,000 miles. This got me to thinking about an often overlooked, but extremely important, metric in a sport that is cluttered with them. Actually, two metrics: Monthly mileage and yearly mileage. But mostly, monthly mileage. Again. Like most things these days, there is a glut of information. Information overload, you could say. There’s a lot of noise out there, and sometimes you have to sift through for the signals. It’s rare for me to do a lecture-like coaching post, but allow me to do just that today. Today’s sermon is directed at all distance runners – but specifically those post-collegians out there still “chasing it,” aiming for fast marathon times or really at any other distance. Here’s my message: Start paying attention to your monthly mileage, which in turn will lead to your yearly mileage. All the noise out there is centered around weekly mileage. Weekly mileage boils down to a random assemblage of seven consecutive days; it’s a useful but somewhat limited metric. Monthly mileage is better at tracking trends and makes you more accountable to keep going, even on days and weeks when you just don’t feel like it.

What’s the best workout to do? How much core should I be doing? What about lifting? Body weight exercises? What type of shoes should I switch to, should I buy? Lightweight trainers for workouts? What kind of workouts are the top runners doing; maybe I should incorporate that? Should I be doing VO2Max, fartlek, tempo, long runs? Should I start a keto diet or intermittent fasting or go paleo? What about yoga, Pilates, dynamic stretching, drills, planks, pushups, pullups, OrangeTheory, spin class … on and on and on! Now, you might snicker at me: Old man is bitter, old man has lost his mind. No, and no. Most of the items mentioned in this paragraph are important, can be important, or can be worked into your overall training regimen. My 10-page training manifesto, after all, is titled “The Little Things” … so I get it and I believe in a holistic approach to training. But I sometimes send snarky texts to our 20-something alums who are out there planning time trials, workouts, hard tempos – or my personal pet peeve: getting on the TRACK for God’s sake, when their goal is to run a fast marathon. And you know what I tell them? Again, in a snarky way? Just run more. How about a few 70-mile weeks already? What you do within them, or when you are not running, your fancy Strava segments … I don’t care. Just run more.

So again, to that cohort: Start focusing on your monthly mileage. All the other stuff in the previous paragraph? Do some of it, whatever you think makes you better. But! If you are training for a half marathon, marathon or other race of length, let nothing get in the way of your monthly mileage. All that other stuff, while important, is supplemental. Your monthly mileage should be front and center. Aim for 200 miles per month at a minimum. If you are in a build-up phase, maybe even 250 or 300 miles per month, maybe more. Even in your “down” phases, aim for 150-200 miles per month. Avoid lengthy breaks from training. You need to be powering through your running shoes at an alarming rate. You want to run fast marathons? You need to run a lot, for many months and many years. Ask Elizabeth Wasserman. You know her, our Fast Forever Fox who made it to the 2020 Olympic Trials in the marathon. Elizabeth did high mileage when she was at Marist, usually the longest long runs and the longest tempo workouts. But all those damn seasons and races got in her way, cluttered up her weeks for what she really needed and craved. After she graduated, she graduated all right … to 100-mile weeks. Hard, long weeks of training. Please note that Elizabeth made this a self-discovery. We are not taking any credit for her miraculous ascent in our sport. And it really wasn’t miraculous. It’s about as tedious as the slow, methodical erosion of the rubber at the bottom of your Hokas or whatever sneakers you wear. Monthly mileage. Grind it out. Month by month, year by year. Next time you feel a hankering to head to the track and relive those workouts we used to do at Vassar or at Spackenkill … go ahead and do it if you must, but not at the expense of the grind. End of lecture. Now go run.

Pandemic Papers: An interview with Sami Ellougani (Class of 2018)

We’ll start with a fun fact about Sami Ellougani: His last name is still misspelled in the contacts on my phone! Why? Well, first and foremost, I’m too lazy to change it. Sami would be HAPPY to reiterate that point! But mostly, it’s because at the time we first talked on the phone, he was a low-level recruit who I was thoroughly convinced was not going to be admitted to Marist … so I figured, why bother? Sami rehashes this in great detail below, and it’s all true! Admission gave me a ‘pre-read’ on him that was not positive. At all. He was a decent but unspectacular middle-distance recruit who was clearly motivated to be a strong computer science major. We would have been a great fit for him … except he wasn’t getting in! So, I told him – repeatedly, apparently – to look elsewhere, at some other fine CS schools where he could also be on their track team. Miraculously, to my surprise, he got into Marist, and he had a great four years here. Funny, how life works out like that sometimes. Athletically, he was injured a lot of the time, and he wasn’t as bad as he noted below – a quick search of his results and I found some pretty good races when he wasn’t packing big bags of ice on various parts of his legs! Regardless? He proved to be an amazing teammate and team member, adding quite a bit to our program – if not totally on the track. Basically, he embodied what we are about (for proof, see the picture above where he gets his teammates fired up before the start of a cross country race). Academically, he excelled and thrived, and he is on the cusp of getting a master’s degree in CS from Georgia Tech, one of the best schools in the country for that discipline. Not bad for a barely B-minus student from Ramsey, NJ, who spent more time playing video games growing up than he probably should have. Speaking of Ramsey: His high school coach, John Kirchhof, and I used to work together at Beginning Trails Running Camp (Hill Busters!), owned and operated by my former college coach Steve Lurie back in the 1980s. Sami references Kirch here and that connection is pretty neat.

 

Another fun Sami fact: He’s got a dog, and she’s ugly. Wow! That’s harsh … and not entirely true, but it sure got your attention, didn’t it? But he does have a dog, and the start of their relationship – in San Antonio, of all places – was definitely rocky. Sami has proven to be a great dog owner. The term “rescue” really applies here. Luna was a lost canine soul and Sami turned her around, and now they are apparently inseparable. An entire question – and thoroughly long response – about Luna follows in this way-too-long Pandemic Papers interview with Sami (Class of 2018). Sami’s answers read just like he talks – entertaining, self-effacing, genuine and with swear words, some of which I edited but most of which remain here. Sami has a high self-awareness, and he talks about his mental health struggles with great honesty here, something he did during his time at Marist as well. We spent many hours talking things through one-on-one, and we became close as a result. During the pandemic, we did a few Skype calls, which were comical mostly due to terrible internet connections on one or both ends, along with insults and sarcasm flying both ways while the screens would randomly freeze. This is what passed as Good Fun in 2020. As we enter 2021 with hope for more face-to-face meetings and fewer “you’re on mute” moments, we’ll continue this interview series – and start the New Year -- with my boy Sami. I hope you enjoy it as much as he clearly enjoyed writing his responses. Thank you.

 

Take us back to the beginning. How, when and why did you start running?

This is actually a pretty funny story. So, before XC/Track, I never participated in a sport in my entire life. One time, in the 7th grade, I tried out for my town’s (Ramsey, NJ) soccer league, and ended up doing pretty well in the tryouts. My dad, a former semi-professional soccer player, was absolutely ecstatic when I took upon this opportunity. Unfortunately, a week or so later, I ended up breaking my elbow by tripping on my shoelace. I know, I know, DUMBASS!  Due to that, my potential soccer career that year was over. What a shame. You’re probably wondering why I didn’t just try out again the following year. I was a super quiet/insecure kid back then, so it took me a lot of courage to even go and try out for a sport. At that time, I think I had maybe three friends that I OCCASIONALLY saw after school. I didn’t want to have to go through that experience of putting myself out there like that again. So, instead of playing sports, I spent all that time doing what my 13-year-old self loved doing, which was playing video games baby! I became so addicted that my mom made a rule that I can only play video games from Friday to Sunday. Every Friday I would do the same thing. I would get home from school (or wake up if I was on break), eat something, go to my basement, boot up my Xbox 360 or PC, and sit there for hours on end. I think I had about five months of game time spent playing World of Warcraft. In college, my boy/teammate Joe Miller and I would always talk about how addicted we were back in the day.

 

One day, during the summer before my freshman year of high school, I was playing Xbox online with a kid named John Strollo from my town. We didn’t really know much of each other, besides the fact that we both went to the same school, and clearly enjoyed playing the same video games. That day, we spent a lot of our time talking about how high school was about to start, and how life changing the experience was going to be. John then asked me, “are you going to join any clubs or anything?” I responded with a very simple answer, NOPE! He then responded saying he was going to join the high school cross country team. I vividly remember saying “WTF is cross country?” I kid you not, this is what John said to me next. John said, “I’m not entirely sure, but you do a couple laps on the track after school, you race here and there on some grass, there’s no tryouts, and it seems like a cool way to make friends … you want to do it with me?” To this day I don’t know what came of me, but with zero hesitation I responded, sure. Here I am, almost 11 years later writing about it. Funny enough, John and I ended up becoming lifelong friends/training partners. To this day we still laugh about how little we knew of the sport, and how silly of a conversation it was. Sure happy we had it though.

 

You ran for a legendary coach (Kirch) at Ramsey. Tell us about that experience and about the highlights you had as a high school runner.

Oh boy, oh boy, good ol Kirch baby! Kirch is easily one of the most influential people in my life so far. He built so much character for me growing up, that if it wasn’t for him, I would not be the man that I am today. When I first started out running in high school, I was god awful. Notice how I used the word awful. Not something soft like bad or kinda sucky. AWFUL. I would stop to walk during 2 mile runs, I would stop in the middle of freshman XC races to catch a breath. Man, I would even be struggling to catch a breath during our 2 lap WARM UP before our main run. It was quite the sight to see. As comical as that sounds, I really mean it when I say that everyday truly felt like an embarrassment. Finishing races so behind that there weren’t many people watching anymore, the occasional jokes towards you in the locker room, going home in tears from time to time...it was a brutal time man. I truly learned what pain was both on a physical and emotional level. However, I never threw in the towel, and the biggest reason was because of him. The best part about Kirch was that he cared the same amount for everyone, regardless of where you stood on the totem pole. Even though I was awful, he believed in me, and continuously motivated me. Eventually, I started building goals for myself, and they just grew in size as time went on. What started as finishing your first training run, then became finishing a race, then became bumping up to the 5k, then became trying to be top 7 on JV, then became shooting for a varsity spot, then became trying to be captain, then became breaking a school record, and then became going to a D1 college. To this day, Kirch and I are still great friends. Love that man.

 

The recruiting process for you was ... let's just say ... interesting. What do you remember about the process, visiting Marist, meeting with me, etc., and what made you choose Marist over the other schools on your list?

HA! Ok, yea, this is gonna be a good one too. So, I never actually did an official visit at Marist. I did an unofficial one where I got lunch with the team, and talked to Pete with both of my parents. At the time, I had this huge afro on my head, and Pete had a beard so long that he looked like Santa Claus. We both lost our hair as the years went on, thankfully. My mom loved Pete because she thought he was super honest. Sure, goddamn is. Almost TOO honest if you ask me! My dad didn’t really have much of an opinion of Pete, but that’s just how he is. Here’s the funny part though. Pete told me multiple times that I was NOT going to get accepted to Marist, and that I should be putting my interest elsewhere. I told you, he’s way too honest!!! His reasoning was valid though, as I was a pretty terrible student in high school (I rocked a smooth 2.7 GPA). However, lo and behold, one day I checked my mail to see a big letter from Marist, and inside was the classic “YES” acceptance folder. To this day, I genuinely think they just f’d up and I was some sort of fluke. I remember telling Pete later that day, and the first thing this clown says is “Wait...SERIOUSLY?!” Yes Pete, seriously, jerk. My other options for schools were tech schools, specifically Rochester Institute of Technology, and New Jersey Institute of Technology. I could have run at both, so that wasn’t much of an issue. The reasoning as to why I chose Marist was because I wanted to be in a more well-rounded environment, not just surrounded by geeks like me. I don’t think I would have gelled well at any of those schools for my undergrad, so I’m happy that I stuck with Marist.

 

You were a computer science major at Marist and seemed to really ENJOY that curriculum. What are some of your favorite courses/professors from your time here, and how did it set you up for your future?

I loved being a Computer Science major at Marist! I knew I was never cut out to be a business major when I found out that you have a class where it is mandatory to wear suits??? Yea, HELL NO. I’ll leave that to Steve Morrison. Due to Marist being a liberal arts school, it caused the CS department to be a relatively small community. I enjoyed this because I found it much easier to meet other students, and create long-lasting relationships with my professors. My favorite professor was Alan Labouseur. He was such a cool dude who really challenged the students with these semester long projects that were AMAZING to throw on a resume. Also, excuse my language, but he didn’t give a shit about upsetting students with giving them an F. His courses were notorious for weeding out the students who were just bullshitting their way through the program, and I respected him for that. He gave assignments that had requirements, and if you met them, you got an A. If you didn’t, you failed. No gimmicks, no nonsense, you failed. I enjoyed that because it held people ACCOUNTABLE.  I think that professors get nervous when it comes time to handing out poor grades to people they may like. He could like you all you want, but if you’re not putting up good code, then kiss that “A” goodbye! My experience being a CS major at Marist was so positive, that it made me want to pursue a master’s degree in CS. I am currently doing an online master’s in CS through Georgia Institute of Technology, one of the best CS schools in the world. Yea, I don’t know how that happened either, but I’ll be graduating at the end of 2021, hopefully!

 

You were able to do a pretty neat internship that led to your first job out of college (in San Antonio!) tell us about that experience and your fondest memories of your time down there!

You know, sometimes I look back at that point in my life, and the first thing I say is “WTF was THAT?” In all seriousness though, the year I moved to San Antonio was an extremely pivotal moment in my life. Yea, I learned some cool things from the job, but the most important thing that I learned was how much of an absolute CHILD I was. In college, I used to literally wash my clothes, dry them, and then leave them on the floor of my bedroom to never be folded. Like … what??? Why did y’all (referring to my friends reading this) allow this kind of behavior?! If you want a crash course on how to be an adult, move to an unknown area super far from home, where you know less than three people. To add some more fuel to the fire, I lived alone too, so I didn’t have a roommate to lean on either. This truly broke me out of my comfort zone, and I learned so much about myself as well. My favorite memories from down there was adopting my dog, going to Austin from time to time (that place PARTIES, man), paying low rent, renting a house off of Canyon Lake, eating the best tacos in the world, going for walks on the Riverwalk, going floating, and only having to pay 2 dollars for beer at a relatively popular bar. Yep, 2 dollars. Every first Friday of the month in San Antonio, they would do a themed citywide bar crawl. That was a LOT of fun too. I miss it all.

 

You were a valued member of our team and a team captain your senior year. Although your running career at Marist was marred with injury, I'm sure you have many positive memories and highlights of your time as a student-athlete. What were some of them?

I have so many positive memories from my time at Marist, that I simply would not be able to put them in one paragraph. My favorite memory, as selfish as it is, was the moment I was named captain my senior year. The reasoning for this is pretty simple. I sucked as a runner at Marist. I got hurt all the time (tore both hamstrings, and my groin). I finished only a handful of races, and the ones that I finished were pretty heartbreaking to watch. I felt like I was in a relationship where I continuously got dumped, but also went back to. Most days felt like a struggle emotionally and physically. What I kept telling myself was, if I could make it out of the mud like I did in high school, then I can do the same in college. I learned a truly valuable lesson from this, and that lesson was every moment in life won’t have a Hallmark movie ending. Not everything will go as planned. Not everything will go in your favor. However, even though I provided literally nothing for the team in terms of points, I still somehow received a lot of votes from my peers when it came time to choose a captain. Later on, I even got a final push for the spot from my MD boys (Tanner, Drew, and Henderson). It showed me that my teammates took note of how hard I was trying, and how much I truly cared. It made me proud and humbled to know that my teammates truly believed that I encapsulated everything it meant to be a Red Fox. It also made me happy to know that I had some of the best teammates on the planet that I wouldn’t give up for anything else. I smiled really hard that day, I even am a little bit as I am typing this.

 

OK, ok ... tell us about your DOG.

LUNA. Ugh, such a beautiful doggo. So, when I first moved out to Texas, I lived by myself which naturally made me very lonely. I always knew that at some point in my life I wanted to have a dog, because my parents refused to get me one when I was growing up. So, I told myself that in 2019, I was going to adopt a dog. I applied for a few dogs, and I got rejected by all of them due to my work schedule. I was pretty bummed, and soon became a little hopeless when it came to the dog search. Then, one day, the foster sent me a link to Luna’s adoption page. I’m going to be completely honest, she looked absolutely terrible in her photo. She literally looked like she came right out of a laundry machine. Even though I was a little hesitant, I still said sure to go meet up with her. On the drive to the foster’s home, I was shaking in fear, questioning myself internally. Do I want this? Am I capable of owning a dog? What if she’s a terrible dog? I eventually get there, I open the door, and Luna (named Lady at the time) sprints away from me. Love at first sight, am I right? She was, and still is a bit, a super anxious dog. To top it off, she absolutely hated men too. I remember the foster holding her away from me because she thought she was going to bite me. At this point, the foster is pretty much telling me it’s OK for me to say no to adopting her, and how a couple people took her and gave her back already (how sad). Luna was also in pretty rough shape too. She had a baseball sized fatty lump on her thigh that needed to be removed, she was 5 pounds overweight (that’s a lot for a small sized dog), clearly ungroomed, and she also needed a deep cleaning on her teeth. The lady kept going on about how it’ll be OK for me to say no, and before she even finished her explanation, I said “I’ll take her.” The lady asked me like 10 times if I was sure, because she was in such shock with my answer. Repeatedly I said, “yup.” Fast forward almost two years, I have grown four more legs. I have my legs, and the four that follow me everywhere (hers if you don’t get the joke). I got her lump removed, cleaned her teeth, took her on runs to help her lose the weight, brought her around other dogs/people to help her with her social anxiety, and all in all just did everything I could to make her a much happier dog. I attached a before and after shot for -- y’all to see yourself.

 

Many of your former teammates and friends lost out on the end of their senior seasons, and some current student-athletes are having a rough senior year currently. What message can you send to them?

Still having some remaining connections to the team, I felt pretty upset when I heard that a lot of these seniors are losing some of their last moments with collegiate running. If there is anything that I learned about life these past couple of years, it is that life will always bring unexpected twists and turns. Just like I said earlier, not everything will have a Hallmark movie ending. However, your character is defined by how you handle times of uncertainty and despair. Does that mean I’m going to tell these adults how to spend their time when it seems like all else is lost? Absolutely not. At the end of the day, I don’t KNOW what they’re going through, and I’m selfishly glad that’s the case. What I will say is this though. Being a running Red Fox, we have always been at a disadvantage. We don’t have a track. Just until recently we had a strength/fitness coach pay attention to us. Hell, I can’t tell you how jealous I am to see that these runners finally have their own meetup space, and no longer have to meet in the racquetball court. Our motto has, and always will be, Be Better, no matter the cost. Regardless of receiving good or bad news, the response as a running Red Fox is always the same. You lace up, and you put in the work. Period. Take that how you wish.

 

If you could have a conversation with the 18-year-old Sami, what would you tell him and what advice would you give him as he prepared to enter Marist?

This is honestly such a tough question because I believe that a lot of the failures/mistakes throughout my time at Marist formed me into something I’m relatively proud of. There are some things I wish I did differently though:

1. Cut your hair, you’re probably already going to do it, but do it sooner.

2. Stop comparing yourself to others. Focus on the day-to-day process with yourself, and you’ll thank me in the long run. Otherwise, you’ll end up running yourself into injury constantly trying to play a toxic game of catch-up. Just do you.

3. Stop living in the past/future, be more present. These are moments that you’re never going to get back in your life, so enjoy it while it lasts.

4. Go see the mental health counselors at school, and actually stick with it. You do have things you want to discuss, you’re just too engulfed with life around you to even think about it. It will catch up with you one day.

5. Just because you have the freedom to go out some weekends, doesn’t mean you should. Take some time every now and then just to relax. You’ll remember the nights that you spent talking crap in the caf with the boys more than you will at a night out.

6. Invite your parents to meets, they won’t ever feel ashamed of you. They just want to see you do what you enjoy.

7. That being said, call your mom every once in a while, asshole.

8. If you’re thinking about showing up to the caf wearing pajamas and a sleeveless shirt, do it. A girl onthe team named Mariah Christian will be embarrassed, and it will be funny each time.

9. Last but not least, CLEAN UP YOUR ROOM.

 

How has the pandemic affected your personal and professional life and where do you see things going over the coming weeks and months?

I have thankfully been very lucky during these unprecedented times. My family and I have had great health so far, which I am very grateful for. Also, things with my job have been great as well. I work for a cybersecurity startup, and oddly enough, this has been one of the best years for us in terms of revenue. Cybersecurity is like renter’s insurance. You don’t need it, until you need it. People need to feel a sense of security (no pun intended) now, so more clients have been buying our product! In terms of how this affected my personal life, I definitely feel as if I have changed a lot. I finally gathered up the courage to go to therapy, which has been an incredible experience for me. I feel as if I have a better grasp of who I am, and also understand my relationships with people more now as well. Where do I see things going? Hell, I don’t know. Like I said, I like to plan my life about one year at a time. I have been manifesting a lot of positive energy going into 2021. I want to graduate from my master’s program, I want to start reading more, I want to increase my physical fitness, I want to look into starting my own tech company, I want to start volunteering more, I want to become a larger mental health advocate, I want to … the list goes on and on. I’ll do everything in my power to make sure I accomplish my goals … but all in all, I can say this for a lot of people too, I want this shit to be over.

 

You've gotten into boxing since you graduated. How the hell did THAT happen?

So remember when I said XC/Track was my first sport? That was a half lie. I used to participate in Tae Kwon Do up until high school, when I eventually joined the XC team. Do I consider Tae Kwon Do a sport? Not really (not to throw a dig at any Tae Kwon Do fanatics out there). That martial art is primarily about discipline. What I’m trying to say here was that I was always into martial arts growing up. So, when I graduated college, I wanted to get back into it. However, I didn’t want to do Tae Kwon Do, I wanted something that was going to push me more physically. I decided to join a boxing gym when I lived in San Antonio, and I really enjoyed it! At the time, I was only participating in what are called “boxercise” classes, which is essentially just getting in shape by hitting a bag. Looking back though, that was a horrible gym, with a horrible trainer. The guy had people of varying weight classes/experience levels sparring each other, uncontrolled, after only a month or so of “training.” If you know anything about boxing, that is extremely frowned upon within the community. Eventually, I moved back to NYC from San Antonio, and I told myself that I was going to get back into it again. I was super excited because NYC has some of the best boxing gyms on the planet. Sadly, the pandemic hit, all gyms were closed, and that goal ended up dying off. One day during May, I was walking Luna by Central Park, and I saw this guy doing pad work with some other person. For whatever reason, the first thing I thought was “this is probably some scam, or some boxercise nonsense like the last time.” Couple weeks go by, and I still see the same guy doing pad work at the same spot on a daily basis. Eventually, I say screw it, and go up to him to ask for his card. His name was Joey Gamache. After ONE google search, my jaw dropped. Joe is a two-weight world champion, and the only world champion to ever come out of Maine. He also trains Otto Wallin, a heavyweight fighter who fought the notorious Tyson Fury, along with training Teofimo Lopez, the unified world lightweight champion. To think I just met this guy by going for a walk at the park. I started working with him and his assistant, Arturo. They’re both super nice guys, and they got me into enjoying the sport. Do I think I’ll compete at an amateur level? Maybe. It would require the same amount of dedication as it was being a runner at Marist. Also, CTE is a thing, and I still need a head on my shoulders to maintain a job. Either way, it’s fun, I stay in shape, and I have met some pretty cool people.

 

Anything else you'd like to add …

Just would like to say thanks for interviewing me, I hope I provided some entertainment for you, and the readers going through this. I’m not the best writer on the planet, so sorry if my grammar was not top notch. I hope everyone stays safe, and remains vigilant through these times. We are currently in the “beginning of the end." Only a matter of time until we can all move past this. If anyone needs someone to talk to during these times, feel free to shoot me an email at sami.ellougani1@gmail.com. Have a happy new year y’all!!!!

Sunrise, circa 2021

Our traditional New Year's Day run from Starbucks in Poughkeepsie (across from Marist) came with a nice view on the return route to Poughkeepsie. Also, a picture of our group with a quick stop mid-run on the Walkway so de La Hoya could snap this picture. Onward to 2021!