Sorry, have not been in blog mode of late. Just saw Keenan's and Jut's comments regarding xc course comparisons. Here are my two cents:
Regarding Sunken Meadow: Keenan makes some fair points. I am not familiar with the course too much, other than when we used to go down there for the season-opening Stony Brook meets. My last recollections from those meets was that the course was a mess. There were drainage issues and it just wasn't that good. Based on Footlockers being there, obviously it has been tidied up.
Look. I am biased toward Bowdoin. The course has been the same since Coach Horton and friends created it 20-plus years ago. It has never been in better shape than it is now. It is a very tough, very fair course. And again, it HASN'T CHANGED. To me, that is key. Has Sunken Meadow changed? I think maybe it has. Again, nothing against Sunken Meadow. It's a great course. But Bowdoin is reaching near legendary status at this point. I really think it is. And it is well deserved.
Regarding the twins' time at Bowdoin: Jut, those guys were CRUISING. They were NOT running all out; at least, that is how it appeared to me, and to legendary track announcer Ian Brooks, who was on hand to emcee the Nike meet (that was cool!). And why would they? They just needed to advance to Nats, where they will be facing pretty stiff competition. Could they have broken the Bowdoin record (which, Keenan my friend, is held by a fancy LI runner named Millieon? am I right?)? I would say most probably yes. That record is 15:39, for those keeping score at home ...
But don't read much into the fact that they ran a lot slower at Bowdoin than Holmdel. I do think Holmdel is not as tough as Bowdoin (oh boy, Curt is gonna come after me on this one, and maybe Emerel!), but I do not think you can just their times on face value. That's just my opinion.
Having said that: As good as those twins are, even all out I could not see them cracking 15:00 at Bowdoin. No way. No how. Based on that statement, Bowdoin is tougher than Holmdel. Bowdoin vs. Sunken Meadow? I will not form an opinion on that since I do not know enough about the current SM layout.
OK? OK.
Love the new poll. Millieon, not just some fancy LI-runner, but fancy St.Anthony's alum. And yes, unfortunately the weather has downgraded Sunken Meadow a bit in recent years. My father has told me the hills are not the same as they used to be, which is disheartening. That said, I think that puts the course on an even keel with Bowdoin. However, bump the distance to 8 or 10K, and Sunken Meadow has nearly every course beat. It's insanely tough.
ReplyDeletesunken meadow´s 5k is not as tough as bowdoin. i have actually never raced bowdoin i won´t act like i ever did. but, i did workout there for four years and that course (even in sections) beat me up. i think we need to stay away from words like legendary when we talk about bowdoin though, VCP is a legendary course, the back hills etc...bowdoin is just one hell of a tough course. harris describes sunken meadow very well.
ReplyDeleteSean: Fair point on the word. However, Bowdoin is approaching legendary status as now it has gone through a few generations of runners. Not as many as Vanny, but the history is pretty significant after 20-plus years. Good to hear from you.
ReplyDeleteThere were many years that my high school teams raced at Bowdoin and Sunken Meadow. The team averages for those meets were always within 5 seconds of each other. Some years the Bowdoin times were a tick quicker, some years Sunken Meadow was quicker. I always considered them equal courses. The conditions at Sunken Meadow deteriorated over the years, while Bowdoin, with Terry taking care of it, has continued to improve. On an historical note, the first two years at Bowdoin were run on a slightly different course than the present course. The course that was used the first two years was thought to be slower than the present course and some of the all-time lists of Bowdoin times have adjusted times from those first two years.
ReplyDeleteThe poll shouldn't be northeast, should be NY/NJ. Thetford, VTs cross country course is wicked tough. The best runners who I've seen run there, Mint Henk (foot locker finalist, national champ in steeplechase in hs, 15:11 guy) broke 16 on the course twice (15:49, 15:52), and Brian McGovern (from CT) never broke 16 on the course. In addition to the hills (Morty's Monster), the weather is usually a factor. But alas, I cannot compare having never run the others.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree with Steve... Bowdoin and Sunken Meadow are equal courses.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Charlie, Thetford is rough.
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